Timeline for What is the Alt-Left?
Current License: CC BY-SA 3.0
25 events
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| Jun 17, 2020 at 9:20 | history | edited | CommunityBot |
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| Oct 17, 2017 at 6:21 | comment | added | jpmc26 | Let us continue this discussion in chat. | |
| Oct 17, 2017 at 5:12 | comment | added | ubadub | I think pointing out your definition is uselessly broad is constructive when you did me the favor of linking to an article that answers your question just fine. If anything I would ask what you think you're adding to this question by taking up a position contradicted by the very source you cite @jpmc26 | |
| Oct 17, 2017 at 5:09 | comment | added | jpmc26 | @ubadub Generally speaking on StackExchange, if you're not willing to provide some useful information, then it's best to leave responding to people who are. See Comment Everywhere, which states you shouldn't comment with, "Criticisms which do not add anything constructive." | |
| Oct 17, 2017 at 5:04 | comment | added | ubadub | Nor do I care to, I have better things to with my time than answer a question you yourself could answer by looking at the very same Wikpedia article you linked. My point is your definition is uselessly broad, nothing more @jpmc26 | |
| Oct 17, 2017 at 5:02 | comment | added | jpmc26 | @ubadub You still haven't offered an alternative or any useful clarification. Additionally, it's not so "uselessly broad" that it invalidates my point in any way, which was that Antifa violently opposes people who reject even that core premise. | |
| Oct 17, 2017 at 5:01 | comment | added | ubadub | Plenty of ideologies claim the state should lead the country towards prosperity. Your definition is uselessly broad @jpmc26 | |
| Oct 17, 2017 at 4:54 | comment | added | jpmc26 | @ubadub I didn't say it did. But if you drill down to the core philosophy of what fascism, at its best intentioned, is supposed to be about, it's the idea that the state should use its power to lead the country into prosperity. I guess if you consider the general militaristic aspects of it essential, I could buy that, but that doesn't really undermine the core idea of using state power to organize, mobilize, and streamline the private industry and citizens. Instead of just insisting that it's "terrible," maybe you could a constructive comment by detailing what you think is wrong or missing? | |
| Oct 17, 2017 at 4:24 | comment | added | ubadub | The wiki article you linked does not say "Fascism is, basically, the idea that the government should be the primary driver of the priorities and goals of citizens (and their businesses)" @jpmc26 | |
| Oct 16, 2017 at 17:48 | comment | added | jpmc26 | @ubadub Not really: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism. It's often associated with all sorts of evil because it has been historically so. In general, I think that's because the premise is flawed and that it enables the worst in people to rise to power. Sure, as a statement it was kind of sterile and dispassionate, but so are definitions of communism and socialism. It's important for all of us to realize that such seemingly sterile ideas can have such awful consequences. | |
| Oct 16, 2017 at 15:10 | comment | added | ubadub | That's a terrible definition of Fascism @jpmc26 | |
| Oct 13, 2017 at 20:42 | comment | added | jpmc26 | @tim Thanks. I think you missed my point regarding speech. I was pointing out that Anti-fa doesn't seem to be targeting actual fascist ideas with their violence; rather, at least some of it is targeted at people whose beliefs are far and away from it. | |
| Oct 13, 2017 at 20:41 | comment | added | tim | @jpmc26 You are completely right, and I think my comments (some of which have been moved or deleted) should make it clear that I do not think that "alt-right" is a valid term either; it's a propaganda term by white supremacists to try to make white supremacism acceptable to the right wing mainsteam (sadly with some success, but there are many on the right who do not fall for it as well). Regarding free speech: That's a straw man (an overused falacy, but here it actually applies). | |
| Oct 13, 2017 at 20:36 | comment | added | jpmc26 | @tim Why do you say Anti-fa opposes fascism? Fascism is, basically, the idea that the government should be the primary driver of the priorities and goals of citizens (and their businesses). Anti-fa uses violence to oppose the speech of people who advocate for government to have a smaller role in our lives. In other words, the idea they're trying to shut down is pretty much the antithesis of fascism... | |
| Oct 13, 2017 at 20:34 | comment | added | jpmc26 | This sort of begs the question about whether we should accept the term "alt-right," either, if it's an attempt by some truly nasty people to create a false association with their beliefs and what most of the right believes. If it's so important to ensure we don't associate Anti-fa extremists with the left, why is it okay to associate white supremacists with the right? | |
| Oct 13, 2017 at 12:12 | comment | added | tim | @yters That's not really historically correct. The Antifa emerged out of communist and social democratic parties to fight rising fascism in Germany. Todays antifa groups have little connection to this origin and their association with communist and social democratic parties is a lot looser nowadays. Their main purpose is still to fight fascism though, not to spread either communism or social democracy. So yes, even if alt-left = antifa (which you just assume), it is a false equivalence. Opposition to fascism and fascism are not the same. | |
| Oct 13, 2017 at 11:32 | comment | added | yters | Antifa are a derivative of a militant communist group, and communism has been the primary enemy of the USA during the 20th century. There is no false equivalence. | |
| Oct 13, 2017 at 9:17 | comment | added | ubadub | "Regressive left" isn't real either, meaning believing in its existence belies a poor understanding of political philosophy. Calling a leftist group "regressive" is a Whiggian fallacy which implies there is a natural "progress" in politics. There isn't. | |
| Oct 13, 2017 at 9:13 | comment | added | ubadub | A word being made up doesn't inherently make it less valid, nor is it true that an exonym is necessarily less valid than an endonym. But that's not the argument here; the argument is that we should specifically be skeptical of political terminology invented by Nazis, because Nazi political philosophy is barbarous and irrationalist. In general, all words are invented, but that doesn't mean all words are equally valid labels. That is, the word "alt-right" is imputed upon a real group, whereas the word "alt-left" is imputed on a Nazi bogeyman, a rhetorical Reichstag fire. @leftaroundabout | |
| Oct 11, 2017 at 12:11 | comment | added | rath |
@tim I think those opposed to the regressive left realized they really don't like the term, so they use it just to spite them - so you might be onto something there re it doesn't describe anything new. But that's a personal observation
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| Oct 11, 2017 at 11:24 | comment | added | tim | @rath True. The reason that it is invalid is that those who invented the term did not do so in order to describe an existing, well-defined phenomenon on the left, but to draw a false equivalency. I'm not sure why people keep stopping at "made up term" and ignore the rest regarding why the term was made up, and that - according to experts on the topic - it does not describe any actually existing phenomenon. (btw, that is also why "alt-right" is mostly an invalid term; it's just a euphemism for white supremacy, not describing anything new) | |
| Oct 11, 2017 at 10:53 | comment | added | rath |
There is no "alt-left" Just because a term is an exonym (alt-left) it doesn't mean it's any less valid than an endonym (alt-right).
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| Oct 8, 2017 at 22:47 | comment | added | Todd Wilcox | @leftaroundabout The person or people who coin a term matters. The Nazis and the Alt-Right named themselves (proudly, I might add). Therefore those groups affirmatively exist. I could say "the Alien Mafia caused the most recent thunderstorm in my area" but that doesn't mean there is anything out there that actually is the "Alien Mafia". If someone turns around and says "We are the Alien Mafia" then they are validating my invention of that term, or I heard it and I'm blaming a real group for the weather. | |
| Oct 8, 2017 at 22:00 | comment | added | leftaroundabout | Politically speaking, I completely agree with this answer; however etymologically speaking, all terms are made up by somebody. If you conclude from this that there is no Alt-Left, you could also conclude that there have never been any Nazis. | |
| Oct 8, 2017 at 18:05 | history | answered | tim | CC BY-SA 3.0 |