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Timeline for What do hard-Brexiteers want with respect to the Irish border?

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Apr 16, 2019 at 4:56 comment added phoog From the BBC story: "Today, a US Homeland Security vehicle sits outside the library’s entrance 24 hours a day." From Wikipedia, after noting that there is no entrance in Canada, only an emergency exit: "Patrons from Canada are permitted to enter the U.S. door without needing to report to customs, providing they return to Canada immediately upon leaving the building."
Apr 16, 2019 at 4:50 comment added phoog @ErikP. Free movement has exactly nothing to do with the state of the border in Northern Ireland. There were never immigration controls, only customs controls and military security checkpoints. The customs controls were removed because of the EU, and the security controls were removed in the wake of the Good Friday Agreement. Ouflak: it is indeed illegal to enter the US away from a border post, except for people with special permits to do so in boats (on the great lakes). While people can cross the border in the library, they can only exit to the country they entered from.
Apr 15, 2019 at 19:56 comment added Relaxed Let's consider one of your examples: What point is the story about ICE raids supposed to “demonstrate”? The US-Mexico border is fenced off on something like a third of its length, there are huge border crossing checkpoints where vehicles have to stop, bags are opened, documentation checked... Why would you even bring it up?
Apr 15, 2019 at 19:48 comment added Relaxed @outflak But tried-and-true techniques to solve what problem? They are used everywhere in addition to border infrastructure, even around borders that are much “harder” than what both the UK and Ireland say they wish to ensure. That's why it's completely beside the point...
Apr 15, 2019 at 18:19 comment added ouflak @Relaxed. They are not new. In fact, that's part of my central point. They've been going for decades and decades. They are tried-and-true techniques and to some extent already going in Northern Ireland anyway. If it wasn't for that fact, I would not have bothered demonstrating the point.
Apr 15, 2019 at 17:55 comment added Relaxed Meanwhile, you completely fail to acknowledge that there is in fact border infrastructure between, say, the EU and Switzerland, a Schengen country with a very close relationship with the EU. If you really think there is a solution doing away with those, fair enough, state as much and provide relevant sources. But listing any sort of customs activities away from the border as if it was somehow new or an obvious solution is disingenuous.
Apr 15, 2019 at 17:50 comment added Relaxed @outflak No it doesn't help, the WTO story has been wildly misrepresented. What the organisation stated (as revealed by a careful reading of the article you linked to) is that it would not itself initiate enforcement. But that's the way the WTO works in general and not a workable solution. But at least this does speak somewhat to the heart of the matter, unlike the rest of the answer which is still misleading and besides the point. The EU has obviously never suggested it wasn't a problem, that's the whole reason for the backstop so please tone down sarcasm...
Apr 15, 2019 at 8:59 comment added ouflak @Relaxed, I've updated the answer with a recent article that states the position of the various parties on this issue. There are more recent statements that are much more specific. Would that help?
Apr 15, 2019 at 8:58 history edited ouflak CC BY-SA 4.0
added 152 characters in body
Apr 15, 2019 at 8:41 comment added ouflak @Relaxed, This answer does provide reliable sources for its conclusions and is consistent with recent statements that the WTO, EU and Republic of Ireland have themselves made. I don't think that deserves a down vote, even if you don't like the answer. If you like, I can plow even more NI examples into the answer, but you don't seem to be disagreeing with that part, so I'm not sure what use that will be. Maybe take this up with the WTO/EU/ROI leadership and tell them how wrong they are?
Apr 15, 2019 at 8:39 comment added ouflak @Relaxed, What it's telling us is that these kind of operations can and do take place in Northern Ireland and are not inciting the Troubles. You stated, "...the concern coming from Ireland and relayed by the EU is that any type of border check or infrastructure could become a source of renewed tensions..." But the WTO has endorsed, and EU and Replublic have clearly stated that they will use exactly these kind of away-from-any-border operations to avoid a return of any tensions. If you disagree with them, fine. I'm only attempting to answer the question with real world examples.
Apr 15, 2019 at 7:21 comment added Relaxed @outflak These operations are going on now when both the UK and Ireland are in the EU. It's also happening between Germany and the Netherlands, Luxembourg and France, etc. So how does it tell us anything about what's needed once the UK leaves the EU?
Apr 14, 2019 at 16:41 comment added ouflak @Relaxed, But if you (or anybody) have another solution that is just as tried and true as what's already happening Northern Ireland (and many other places in the world), please post it. If it's reasonable and valid, I'll certainly vote it up and I'm sure others will too.
Apr 14, 2019 at 16:41 comment added ouflak @Relaxed, Also apologies if I somehow implied it would be 'trivial*. Let me flat out say that it will not be trivial. I can include that statement in the answer if you like. It will all have to be done with extreme consideration and with immense focus on cooperation by all parties. The one thing I believe that everybody can agree on is that they don't want a return of the Troubles. Likewise, the UK doesn't want to have its territory bifuricated and neither does the EU. Both sides are perfectly correct in feeling that way.
Apr 14, 2019 at 16:30 comment added ouflak @Relaxed, The symbol of the Troubles is the border patrol posts between the Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. They were pointed out distastefully by all sides and targets both topically and literally. You say that none of the examples address this, yet one of the examples is a customs raid in Northern Ireland conducted by the HMRC! That was just one example I put up. I spread the rest around the world, but there are many more for NI. The fact that these kind of operations are going on as we speak is more than enough evidence that they can work without inciting the Troubles.
Apr 14, 2019 at 10:34 comment added Relaxed (-1) The last sentence does all the work (“prevent any return of the Troubles”) but explains nothing. From the beginning, rightly or wrongly, the concern coming from Ireland and relayed by the EU is that any type of border check or infrastructure could become a source of renewed tensions. None of the examples provided in the answer address that. Otherwise, it would relatively trivial for the EU to offer a solution (cf. the borders with Norway or Switzerland, which are considerably “softer” than the USA/Canada border).
Apr 10, 2019 at 16:45 history edited ouflak CC BY-SA 4.0
Realized I left out a Russina example.
Apr 10, 2019 at 16:10 history edited ouflak CC BY-SA 4.0
Moving examples from comments into answer.
Apr 10, 2019 at 16:00 comment added ouflak Yeah I guess I can do that. At the time I only had one request, and frankly it seemed unnecessary due to obviousness. But his comment has gotten a few upvotes and now another request so....
Apr 10, 2019 at 15:53 comment added TRiG @outflack. Rather than (or perhaps in addition to) adding requested examples in comments, you should edit them into your answer.
Apr 10, 2019 at 7:10 comment added Sentinel @ouflak Well, yeah, I get that. I just poorly formulated my comment. I don't really see the overall comparison as a good one. The comparison would need to include some geographically close extension of Canada that is its major trading partner. And the USA would need to be suffering a huge influx of Latin American migrants trying to escape foreign-funded wars there. The analogous situation would be that if Canada did not implement a well-manned hard border with the USA, such as Trump's wall, then immigration and corruption would result in that Canada's equivalent of England divorcing from it.
Apr 10, 2019 at 6:31 comment added ouflak @Sentinel, I was not comparing the countries. I was comparing the borders. In particular, I was comparing the situation where there is movement of goods and people that aren't, and simply can't feasibly be, controlled at the physical border. It's just not practical. That has nothing to do with the actual countries involved as much as the logistics. They've had to come up with other solutions and have done so. It's these solutions that EU, the Republic of Ireland, and even the WTO have all endorsed recently. That's the comparison, not to the countries, but to the situation.
Apr 10, 2019 at 6:28 comment added ouflak @Rich. No. Canadian citizens and American citizens can cross these borders away from crossing points and do so all the time. Indeed there is atleast one town where the U.S.-Canadian border cuts right through and goes through a library bbc.com/travel/story/….
Apr 10, 2019 at 4:24 comment added Sentinel I don't think a comparison with Canada is relevant. First of all Canada does not have the problem that US funded wars in nearby Middle East are causing droves of people to move by boat and foot to Europe including the UK. Next is that both N.Irish and S.Iridh trading partners WANT to continue trading freely and no amount of UK supervision is going to prevent the ensuing corruption of controls. Effectively, N. and S. Ireland would fuse, and UK would have to implement a hard border with Ireland.
Apr 10, 2019 at 2:50 comment added Rich @ouflak Isn't it illegal to cross the US/CA border away from a crossing point, even if you are a citizen of the country you are entering and don't have any contraband? The people on both sides of the NI border have become used to doing just this.
Apr 9, 2019 at 17:14 comment added ouflak @thelem, If you want any more, just let me know. There are so many examples, I could expand to the rest of the world as well. I ignored drugs, as there are just too many of those to be interesting. I also ignored people smuggling for more-or-less the same reason. The UK used to have a show 'Border Patrol' on which you can see them doing checks at train stations based on profiling. It was very interesting, if a bit appalling at times. It did yield results though. You can look that up. Any special requests you might have to do yourself. It's a lot to sort through and I think I've made my point.
Apr 9, 2019 at 16:57 comment added ouflak @ErikP. I haven't heard anybody, Remainer or Brexiter, claim it would be 'no big deal'. But I have heard the WTO, EU and ROI say that they will use other means than ROI/NI checks at a border. Anyway, I've found a couple of interesting examples, one that supports your statement about US/Canada cooperation.
Apr 9, 2019 at 16:50 comment added Erik P. There are plenty of borders that aren't "hard" in the world - they usually arise from some form of treaty or agreement between the countries on both sides of those borders. For NI & ROI, that agreement was the free movement clause of the EU membership that both GB and ROI have; the US and Canada have elaborate treaties describing how their border works. To my mind, that's what would be exceptional about the Brexiteer claim that this is no big deal and it'll all automatically work out.
Apr 9, 2019 at 11:57 history answered ouflak CC BY-SA 4.0
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