Can catalans lose EU/Spanish citizenship if Catalonia is independence? [closed]

Question

I was reading the answers of What's will be like a viable and legal roadmap to Catalonian independence? and one of them says:

-If the vote to leave is over 50%, then the process for creating a new country starts. All the Spanish citizens that vote to leave lost their Spanish (and EU) citizenship. All those that vote No retain their Spanish citizenship and are treated as any Spanish citizen in a foreign country. Until there is a no double taxes treaty with the new country, Spanish citizens must pay taxes in Spain. The new country must ask to join EU, UN, etc. In the meantime, there is a frontier between the EU and the new country.

I am confused, I though that any person that was born in a European country would not lose the EU citizenship if Catalonia leaves EU but Spain doesnt (The citizens could choose which nationalities to maintain, so they could choos to maintain the Spanish one and then the europian one). The answer states that no, if you vote to leave you are out and if you vote to stay you maintain your citizenship.

Can someone make that clear, in a situation like this. Can catalans keep the Spanish citizenship if they are independence or it would depend on the governments? +1: If the answer is true (I dont think so), how they control who votes yes or no? It is supposed to be anonymous.

EDIT: There are people stating that the LAW says that in this case they will not lose citizenship but only statements, I couldnt confirm it. Example, in an interview to the president of Spain the interviewer says:

Porque la ley dice que el ciudadano nacido en España no pierde la nacionalidad aunque resida en un país extranjero si manifiesta su voluntad de conservarla.

Translation: A citizen born in Spain would not lose the citizenship (EU and Spain) even if it resides in another country and want to keep it.

http://www.eldiario.es/politica/surrealistas-entrevista-Rajoy-Onda-Cero_0_433606891.html

I know that it is not exactly the same residing in another country that the independence situation, but in the interview they are talking about that and they make it clear as if it will happen the same if Catalonia leaves.

EDIT2: I do not want to discuss if Catalonia will or not stay in the EU directly after, that was already discussed.Can Catalonia enter the EU after its independence from Spain? (It was more or less clear that no they do not stay in the EU and they will need to apply later)

I want to discuss if any law in EU or Spain contemplates something like this (Like that any person who already has a citizenship of a EU country would not lose it even if a region is not from this country and you are there) Similar to what @phoog answer, but with some sources. The main point will be if Spain will allow catalans to mantain citizenship, if not, if it is force to do it or if it is not clear. I dont think the EU will have anything to avoid the Spanish government to choose their citizens.

Answer 1

Spain decides on Spanish nationality. Current law does not contemplate a situation in which part of Spain becomes independent, so current provisions against the involuntary loss of Spanish nationality should not be assumed to apply in such a situation.

In the hypothetical case of a part of Spain becoming independent, Spain might decide that some of its citizens would lose Spanish nationality. For example, it might pass a law causing anyone who becomes a citizen of the newly independent country to lose Spanish nationality. In that case, assuming that the new country is not a member of the EU, those losing Spanish nationality would also lose EU citizenship.

On the other hand, if Spain were to decide that nobody would lose Spanish nationality in connection with the independence, then nobody would lose EU citizenship.

The more likely outcome, however, is that there would be some mechanism that causes most people to be citizens of one country or the other after independence. (The suggestion that post-independence nationality should be determined by how one voted in a referendum is entirely impractical because ballots are secret.) The existence of that mechanism would imply that at least some people would cease to be Spanish and, therefore, would cease to be EU citizens.

Answer 2

As others said, it's complicated and depends on decisions and negotiations. But I'll try to present the main possibilities :

1. EU doesn't acknowledge Catalan independence. It considers Catalans to be Spanish citizens, and therefore EU citizens.
2. Independent Catalonia is an EU member - Catalans are EU citizens.
3. Independent Catalonia isn't an EU member. Some Catalans, perhaps most, may retain their Spanish citizenship, and EU citizenship, others will not (either won't be able or won't want it), and will lose EU citizenship.

Of course, it can change over time - e.g. from 1 to 3 to 2.

Answer 3

Short answer: Unknown.

This would be a big problem for the European Union. This has indeed been approached in the European Parliament in Subject: Right to self-determination of peoples: referendum on Catalan independence and Spain's opposition to it from which I (partially) quote:

Also in the light of its answer to Question E-007453/2012, in which it states that in the hypothetical event of a secession of a part of an EU Member State, the solution would have to be found and negotiated within the international legal order, does the Commission not agree that the EU treaties and other international treaties are preventing Catalonia from calling a free and democratic referendum to allow Catalan citizens to exercise their inherent right to self-determination, which is also provided for in the UN Charter?

Should it not take action — and if so, how — to safeguard the rights of Catalan citizens and institutions which, as President Puigdemont told the European Parliament, want to exercise their right to self-determination and remain in the EU?

To which the response Answer given by President Juncker on behalf of the Commission was:

As already explained by the Prodi Commission in its answer to the written question P-000524/2004, and as recalled lately by this Commission, in its answer to the Written Question E-011776/2015, it is not the role of the Commission to express a position on questions of internal organisation related to the constitutional arrangements in the Member States.

Concerning certain scenarios such as the separation of one part of a Member State or the creation of a new State, these would not be neutral as regards the EU Treaties.

The Commission recalls that the process for the accession of States to the European Union must be fully in line with the rules and procedures foreseen by the Treaties.

^{Note: Before proceeding I would like to make a note here that much of the linked questions have been made by Euroskeptic parties. I'll purposely leave in the open if this might have, or not, an influence in the respective answers from the Commission.}

Most of the European Commission answers (but not all) seems to lean towards the opinion that the seceding state will leave the EU. This will gain a new degree of complexity if Scotland decides to leave the UK while Brexit is still occurring (In terms of diplomacy the EU should not give a different answer for both regions).

I would phrase The Political Economy of Secession in the European Union by Roland Vaubel regarding the legal aspects of this issue (^{relevant: Barroso, Reding and van Rompuy have supported the opinion that leaving a EU country would mean leaving the EU}):

The legal position taken by Barroso, Reding and van Rompuy has no basis in the European treaties. Nor is there a precedent in EU law. Nor has this question ever been settled in any UN agreement or Vienna Convention. There are merely practices, and they vary among international organisations.

And he provides his assessment:

For good reasons, Art. 34 of the Vienna Convention opts for the second solution: treaties in force at the time of secession remain in force in all successor states. How would this second solution work if membership in international organisations were not excluded (by Art. 4) from this principle? If, say, Catalonia seceded from Spain or Scotland from the UK, both would remain members of the European Union. The seceding state and the rump state would have to negotiate an agreement on how they wished to share the rights and obligations of the predecessor state. If they did not meet their joint obligations, both could be expelled by the international organisation.

Notice that the Vienna Convention (I assumed Vienna Convention on Succession of States in respect of Treaties) does not have any power over Spain or the EU. In fact it seems Spain is not a signatory. Vaubel presents Vienna Convention as a possible legal basis for the problem but not one that by itself enforces anything.

This is not immediately associated with the question but might have a big impact in future negotiations and as so I feel it's important to quote it (it's in the same paper I linked previously):

Political philosophers derive the right of secession either from the right of self-determination or from the right of resistence against injustice. The choice between these two justifications makes a big difference. While the right of self-determination may justify an unconditional right of secession, the right of resistence presupposes that the government has violated its legal obligations.

The philosophical difference is often made by how the seceding state is seen by the outside (victim or not). Giving the lack of adequate precedent the European Commission and the European Parliament will likely rule based on that (if all members states accept the decision or not is yet another question, and the European Court idem).

Personal interpretation: That being said I think the EU will try to keep itself out of this issue as long as it can. If forced to make a decision (in case Catalonia does indeed secede) it will likely keep itself on the side of Spain and request a period for the "divorce". This process would likely take years and a lot can happen meanwhile. The EU is not fast. In order to avoid this situation there might some pressure for Spain to reform (perhaps considering Federalism as opposed to Devolution). In any case it is possible (and perhaps likely) for Catalans to lose EU citizenship in case of secession.

Answer 4

you are confused because there are nothing fixed by law yet. This situation has no precedents. All must be negotiated, legislated and become law. The previous statement is only a proposal to work on, don't states anything. That voting is anonymous is not writed on stone, and a signed voting is the only way that anyone assume the results of their voting, they want to have it both ways.

Answer 5

It seems that retaining EU citizenship in the case that Catalonia secedes from Spain and declares independence would not be automatic; the Guardian writes:

Despite claims by pro-independence campaigners that the EU would not want to lose a wealthy region that would rank 15th or 16th in the bloc in terms of GDP, Brussels has made clear that the region will not automatically become a member.

It would have to apply, and acceptance would require the agreement of every other EU member state – including Spain, which in 2014 threatened to veto an eventual Scottish accession bid precisely to discourage Catalan independence.