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Re 2024Mar Crocus City Hall attack, Ben Shapiro told Piers Morgan: "I don't see a lot of calls for Putin to act with tremendous restraint". See starting 15:11 in Piers Morgan vs Ben Shapiro | On Israel-Hamas, Candace Owens And More

Piers: Would it be logical given the way that Israel responded to uh the Hamas attack on October the 7th for Putin to go and do the same thing that Israel's done in Gaza to the area where these terrorists came from?

Ben: I mean so first of all Putin has done that historically many times over whether you're talking about Chechnya whether you're talking about other areas uh as far-- and nobody seemed to bat an eyelash when it was Vladimir Putin doing that. So I'll first point that out. Second of all I don't see the international pressure to give ISIS-K or its allies a state in the aftermath of a mass terror attack. I don't see a lot of calls for Putin to act with tremendous restraint in the aftermath of that terror attack.

Question: Why no such calls for Vladimir vs ISIS in Russia/Tajikistan but many for Bibi Netanyahu vs Hamas in Israel/Palestine? Or were there? I don't think Jeremy Boreing's 'post-war lie' applies.

Btw, I couldn't find 'tremendous' restraint, but...

Oh here's 1 that au contraire compliments Israel

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    I originally voted to close as unclear, but after re-reading the Why no such calls for Vladimir... along with the meme pic, it is clear it's just aim to promote/discredit. I found out I could not change it to "aim to discredit" without retracting the VTC entirely. This is a non-salvageable push Q, not one needing clarification. VTD as well, just I am VTD on the equally useless sniper victim question that came right after it and is pushy from the opposite angle. Apr 2 at 21:48
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    @ItalianPhilosophers4Monica: on that now-deleted meme (idea) we already had a Q. or two I agree it doesn't help much to bring up that issue here again, since this Q mostly concerns the positions of the West with the examples it gives (albeit with the UAE & Egypt thrown in there too). Apr 2 at 23:48
  • Please don't change the Q after it's been answered. You can and have asked the 'fact checking' one on Skeptics now. Apr 5 at 1:35

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Do you expect Putin to invade Tajikistan and do a regime change there? Or cut all their food and water (for a while)? So far he hasn't threatened to do that. And for good reason, the gov't of Tajikistan (unlike that of Gaza being Hamas) wasn't backing the ISIS-K boyos, even if their surveillance of a family who already had one son die in Syria was suboptimal.

Also, the BBC comments/reports:

Soon after the Moscow attack, several Russian MPs called for the tightening of migrant laws. One suggested migrants should be expelled from Russia "for the slightest offence".

But there is no realistic chance of that happening as Russia benefits from Central Asian migrants too. The war in Ukraine has left Russia facing labour shortages and it would simply be unable to afford losing millions of workers.

Besides, Israel is considered by and large part of the West. So appeals from Western leaders are more likely to be taken into account there. Russia's leadership is already considered mostly 'beyond reason' by Western leaders, and so is increasingly its broader culture. The Western media showed the brutality metted to the 4 Tajiks and shrugged at the [unflinchingly approving] Russian TV response/commentary. (Given reports of how Russia treats Ukrainian prisoners, few had any different expectations at this point.)

To say nothing that the West is being a bit busy fighting the Kremlin propaganda claiming that this was a West-orchestrated operation. More precisely the Russians claim the US, the UK, and Ukraine were behind the Islamists. (US intel agencies at least were busy telling (Western) journalists that they had in fact specifically mentioned Crocus in the list of potential targets given in their warning to the Russian services before the attack, contradicting Naryshkin's claim that the US warnings had been "too general" to be actionable.)

FWTW, even Medvedev who talked up nukes and missiles from the sky (against ICC) in the past, made a conditional statement here:

Putin lieutenant Dmitry Medvedev declared that if Ukrainian involvement is proven, Moscow should respond by deploying hit men to kill the country’s leaders “in Kyiv or any other convenient place.”

As for the Arab world response to Hamas vs ISIS. The latter is much more universally reviled. As you mentioned Egypt, they had their own war in the Sinai against the ISIS branch there, which included a large loss of life in one event--some 300 people in a mosque. (It remains controversial if ISIS also brought down a plane there, or if they claimed responsibility for an accident; Egyptian courts and Russian investigators disagreed on the cause.) Hamas actually helped Egypt there a bit, as they could not stand competition, so killed any who declared allegiance to ISIS on their side of the fence. (FWTW, ISIS also 'declared war' on Hamas.)

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    Not to mention that, whatever the calls on Russia re. the concert attack, there has been plenty of Western pressure applied on Russia in general for the last 2+ years. What does Shapiro want more, to show that Bibi is not being unfairly singled out? Direct NATO involvement against Russia? Apr 2 at 16:55
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    I think the first paragraph hits the nail on the head: Russia doesn't need to be told to "act with restraint" because it already is, at least when compared to Israel. Even when you consider that it's pinning the blame on a country it's already at war with, it hasn't really escalated its war efforts beyond what it was already doing.
    – F1Krazy
    Apr 3 at 16:03
  • Thanks the gods from engineering. By 'Besides, Israel is considered by and large part of the West. So appeals from Western leaders are more likely to be taken into account there. Russia's leadership is already considered mostly 'beyond reason' by Western leaders, and so is increasingly its broader culture.' you mean democracy 6.00+ right?
    – BCLC
    Apr 30 at 7:40
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Because Tajikistan didn't claim credit for the attack

Setting aside all the questions of whether or not Russian politicians care about Western opinion, it's important to note that the terrorist attack was, without a doubt, not coordinated by Tajikistan's official government. ISIS publicly took responsibility, Putin is hinting at a Ukrainian/Western connection but absolutely no one thinks the official Tajikistan government had anything to do with it.

Compare this to the attack of October 7th where Hamas officially took credit for the attack while being the defacto government of the territory of Gaza. It made sense to ask for restraint because Israel had a very clear government to target in response, where plenty of civilian casualties could be expected. If Tajikistan took credit for the attack on Russia and Putin was commandeering the Russian airforce to start dropping bombs on Dushanbe, I'm sure the West would likewise publicly ask Russia to show restraint in the counter-attack.

Now, Putin might use the attack to justify additional attacks on Ukraine but this is nothing new and the West has done plenty of statements about that particular conflict. Asking Putin to avoid dropping yet another bomb on Kiev is an exercise in futility.

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    Slight correction re: "Asking Putin to avoid dropping yet another bomb on Kiev is an exercise in futility." Russia is mainly using missiles and drones against Kyiv, but it does use bombs against the places that are either less protected or closer to the front line. Apr 2 at 19:40
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The government of the Russian Federation as well as the Russian state TV used this terrorist act of ISIS-K to mobilize the public opinion against Ukraine and its allies among the Western democracies.

Russia put the blame for this heinous terrorist act on Ukraine and its allies. Russia subsequently used this false pretext to order more attacks against civilians and civilian infrastructure in Ukraine.

Some analysts have speculated that this terrorist act will be used by Russia to help justify the future mobilization for the war, but that remains a speculation as of now. These analysts point to the similar events that led to the acceleration of Russia's war again Chechnya two decades ago.

This false blaming of Ukraine and the West renders the question about ISIS-K moot. The question can be rephrased perhaps as:

Why no such calls for Vladimir Putin vs. Ukraine but many for Bibi Netanyahu vs. Hamas in Gaza? Or were there?

References:

Meanwhile in Russia: Vladimir Solovyov and Margarita Simonyan blamed the U.S., UK and Ukraine—but not ISIS—for the terrorist attack at the Crocus City Hall.

Julia Davis on X, 5:13 PM · Mar 25, 2024

Head of RT Margarita Simonyan blames the US and Ukraine for the Crocus City Hall attack - YouTube (12 min)

More: Julia Davis (@JuliaDavisNews) / X


Vladimir Putin, the Russian president, said that the Moscow concert hall attack is “part of Kyiv regime’s attacks on Russia”. In remarks made Monday, Putin called the attack an “act of intimidation” and said that Russian officials are “interested in who benefits from it”.
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The White House dismissed Russia’s claims that the attack is linked to Ukraine, calling the assertion “Kremlin propaganda”. On Monday, White House spokesperson John Kirby addressed the accusation, saying: “There was no linkage to Ukraine ... This is just more Kremlin propaganda.”

Putin says radical Islamists carried out Moscow concert hall attack but doubles down on blaming Ukraine – as it happened | Russia | The Guardian


Top Russian officials have directly accused Ukraine and the West of being involved in the deadly Moscow concert hall attack, after it was claimed by the Islamic State (IS) group.

IS has released video of the atrocity, but Vladimir Putin and two close allies have claimed the jihadists were helped by Western and Ukrainian intelligence.

Ukraine has rejected Russia's "lies".

The scenario is all the more unlikely because the US had warned Russia of an imminent attack 15 days earlier.
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Ukrainian presidential adviser Mykhailo Podolyak said the facts about the perpetrators and "the failed incompetence of the Russian security services are indisputable". Western countries have also ridiculed the Kremlin's narrative.

The Russian leader acknowledged during a televised meeting on Monday: "We know the crime was committed by the hands of radical Islamists... we want to know who ordered it."

He argued that many questions remained unanswered, repeating an unfounded claim that the attackers had tried to flee south to Ukraine.

"Who was waiting for them there?" he asked. "This atrocity may be just a link in a whole series of attempts by those who have been at war with our country since 2014."

The US was trying to convince the world that Kyiv had no connection to the attack, he said, but he continued to point the finger at the West which he said was using Ukraine to fight against Russia.

One of Mr Putin's longest-serving allies, security council secretary Nikolai Patrushev, doubled down on Mr Putin's claim on Tuesday when he was asked whether IS or Ukraine was behind the attack: "Of course, Ukraine."

Then the head of Russia's FSB security service, Alexander Bortnikov, went further.

"We believe the action was prepared both by the radical Islamists themselves and, obviously, facilitated by Western special services. Ukraine's special services themselves have a direct connection to this."

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky has condemned the Russian accusations: "Putin was talking to himself again... Again, he blames Ukraine. A sick and cynical creature."

Moscow attack: Russia blames West and Kyiv for jihadist massacre

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    Russia has all the more reason to be accusing the West because Putin claimed the threat was a Western hoax beforehand: (20.03.2024) Turning to the announcement of a number of Western embassies in Russia about a terrorist threat alert, Putin called them "frankly provocative." "All this resembles outright blackmail and the intention to intimidate and destabilize our society," he said. Apr 2 at 17:03
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    Even Iran is now claimed to have warned them: Iran tipped off Russia about the possibility of a major "terrorist operation" on its soil ahead of the concert hall massacre near Moscow last month, three sources familiar with the matter said. Apr 2 at 17:16
  • wait it's moot because the answer for 'Russia vs Ukraine' as compared to 'israel vs hamas' answers a fortiori the answer for Russia vs ISIS-K as compared to 'israel vs hamas'
    – BCLC
    Apr 11 at 22:01
  • @BCLC Sorry, I could not follow this comment - could you please expand a little? TY! Apr 11 at 22:26
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TLDR: It is mind-boggingly ridiculous to be claiming Netanyahu, in 2024, is facing more pressure than Putin.

(though it goes edited out, the original version of the question had a nasty little "Islamic world in a nutshell" photo meme in it, showing just how pushy the intent was)

Let's contrast two things:

  • aid to Ukraine against Putin regime since 2022: $42B military +26B other. Sanctions against Russia. Blocking of Russia's foreign deposits.

  • ongoing aid for Israel since 1946: nearly $300B, about 220B military and counting (incidentally, one of the motivations for leaning on Netanyahu might be risks from the Leahy Act, and quite possibly an understanding of how much Israel's long term reputation is at risk). About 100 weapon shipments since 10/7, and there would have been more $14B aid to Israel if Congress wasn't blocking Ukraine + Israel aid since last year (I wonder where Shapiro stands on that...).

It is also unclear how much more "disapproval" the West can show to Putin at this point. Should NATO confront him directly? Tell us, Mr. Shapiro.

And let's look at the honorable Shapiro's CV:

He was editor-at-large of Breitbart News from 2012 until his resignation in 2016.

In 2019, Shapiro published the book The Right Side of History: How Reason and Moral Purpose Made the West Great, which focuses on the importance of "Judeo-Christian values" and laments the decline of those values in modern America.

In 2021, Shapiro published the book The Authoritarian Moment, which argues that there is not a pressing authoritarian threat in U.S. politics from the right-wing. Rather, he argues that the authoritarian threat comes from the left's control of academia, Hollywood, journalism, and corporate America.[20]

Totally, totally, a credible and unbiased person on which to hang this question on. Next time I write a post, I know, I'll cite the editor of L'Humanité to make my point.

Last, but not least. Concern with Israel's actions is not based on it responding forcefully to Hamas 10/7's atrocities. Israel has a right to defend itself. And so does Russia against ISIS (though it now chooses to ignore ISIS's own statements of involvement).

It is in the manner of which that war is being prosecuted by Israel. The West has little expectation at this point from Putin's Russia waging war in a civilized manner. It has limited leverage on Russia, a totalitarian nation which considers itself at war with us. The West does expect better from Israel, a fellow democracy it has long been supporting, which we respect and consider a close ally. And to whom it still delivers arms to fight that war.

Russia's handling of the terrorist attack - in as far as it aims to punish the perpetrators, rather than attacking Ukraine some more - is more likely to be on police/intelligence end of things, with Tajikistan probably eager to collaborate. No, it won't be pulling a Grozny, not this time, so it has little relationship to what's happening in Gaza.

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  • We've had a number of moderator interventions when content is too biased in this war. I wonder what's keeping them on this question. Apr 9 at 16:13
  • To clarify I'm talking about not Russia vs Ukraine but Russia vs ISIS-K. Are you indeed about ISIS-K not Ukraine ?
    – BCLC
    Apr 11 at 21:59
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    No, I am talking about it being ridiculous to try to claim that Bibi gets more pressure than Putin. Look at the big picture: frozen assets, massive aid against Russia (to Ukraine). Vs. arms shipments, aid to Israel, as well as, so far, cover at the UN. But being ridiculous and deceitful certainly doesn't come very hard to Shapiro. Apr 12 at 0:08

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